I don’t need to be a man to be successful

Explore the finance and sustainability boardrooms with Ami Moris, the former CEO of the investment banking group at Maybank. Ami shares her journey from a background in mathematics and political science to reaching the C-suite, overcoming challenges in the male-dominated brokerage industry. Discover pivotal moments that shaped her career, emphasizing the power of emotions, the significance of building social capital, and the necessity of having fun along the way.

Discussion Topics: I don’t need to be a man to be successful

• Introducing Ami Moris: The advisor and executive coach on business and sustainability projects for Maybank Now.
• Ami’s Journey and Role at Maybank: Ami Moris discusses her background, her role at Maybank, and her journey from mathematics and political science to finance.
• Challenges in a Male-Dominated Industry: Her experiences and challenges, especially in the male-dominated world of the brokerage industry and her decision to stick it out.
• Challenges Faced in Leadership Roles: Challenges she faced during her tenure and how she navigated them, including holding back candid views.
• Building Social Capital: The importance of building social capital, having sponsors, and conducting a social audit to advance in one’s career.
• Support and Sisterhood: The importance of sisterhood and supportive networks.
• Having Fun and Defining Success: Always have fun in whatever you do and reflect on what people would say about you if you don’t wake up tomorrow.
• Closing and Key Takeaways.

Transcript: I don’t need to be a man to be successful

Ritu G. Mehrish: Hi Ami, welcome to the Rewrite The Rules podcast. We are really excited to have you on our show this time, and I’m sure our listeners are gonna get a lot from this conversation. Just let me get started with introducing you and then I’m gonna hand over to you. So Ami is the advisor and executive coach on business and sustainability projects for Maybank Now. Ami, over to you. Can you tell us a little bit about your current role, but also a little bit about your journey? 

Ami Moris: I have been with me when, close to 15 years. I just retired at the end of last year as the CEO. The investment banking group which was a portfolio of 10 different jurisdictions spanning from Hong Kong to the us And of course our primary markets were the six asan countries Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, Vietnam and Singapore over 15 years, these, were the most pivotal years I feel in my career. Not only because it was a very progressive journey, particularly into a C-suite role, but also in realizing the ambitions of the bank to become a regional player, so to speak.

Ritu G. Mehrish: Have you always been in banking or what’s been before Maybank? What was the journey like?

Ami Moris: No, actually the one strange twist in my life is that I grew up. I did my degree in mathematics and then I got exposure to political science and I discovered, a great passion for understanding, factors that really impact societies.

So I did a double degree in the end both math and politics and then I did my masters, in social science and philosophy. And entering the world of finance was never part of my ambition in life. But after having spent 13 years in the UK where, I had to do so many jobs just to actually keep myself afloat economically I did six, seven jobs, waitressing and, even, answering pizza calls for pizzas, pizza deliveries, et cetera, I actually realized that I was getting a bit tired and I, what really drove me, past, after I finished my master’s.

Was, the need to ha gain for myself, financial independence, to be able to say, Hey, this is what I want to do and I am then able to actually afford to do what I want to do.

Working hard has always been. Part of my, family culture, is family work ethic. My father was a civil servant. We came from a very poor family. There was eight of us, seven girls. Seven girls and one boy. I was. I guess very blessed. My father being, struggling himself was very emphatic about making sure that all seven girls, his seven daughters together with his son were able to get the best education. And that really, I think, really set me, on the path that I have always been on the always wanting to learn and continuing to learn to always be better always to better myself.

Ritu G. Mehrish: Wow. That’s such a great story and so inspiring what have been some of the pivotal moments or some of the big risks that you take, that paid off? Any anecdote that stands out for you?

Ami Moris: When I think back and I reflect on my career, for example, two things that really helped to contextualize my experiences firstly, is that, I was born in newly independent Malaysia. Growing up in Malaysia post independence there was a lot of, was there were a lot of opportunities. There were, there was also limited access to opportunities. So in that sense, coming from a very poor background and. Not having the right access really meant that you had to be very single-minded.

You had to be very focused and fixated on wanting to use education as that lifeline to a different world of possibilities from that newly independent con, newly independent nation context. Then when I came back to Malaysia in the early nineties, It was to a very different context than it was to an emerging market context.

And so when I first came back, the very first question I asked was, do I need to gain, my financial independence? What’s the best job for me? And I was told that capital markets in emerging markets, then, were in a boom.

And that was how I ended up in the brokerage industry. And of course, the brokerage industry is a very male dominated world. I found myself, in an emerging market, in an industry that, where the, where the appreciation of the differences between the genders were perhaps not something that was given a lot of attention to.

That was the risk I took. Found it extremely difficult. I struggled tremendously dealing with, norms that I found not appropriate or perhaps not conducive for the development of women professionals. But I made a decision that, no, I’m gonna stick this I’m going to stick this out.

I’m gonna make sure that I find my way right to navigate the differences and which at many times became polarities. I remember many nights of being in tears.

Because, sometimes you are not invited to the table. You, and even when you’re invited to the table, when you speak, people look at you and think what have you got to say whatever it is that you think you have an opinion on? And sometimes, you were just ignored.

So there it was very challenging. But you know what? I stuck through the brokerage industry right up to the end of my career naturally from brokerage. I really then expanded once we acquired our regional footprint, I expanded into investment management and investment banking as a whole.

Ritu G. Mehrish: During your tenure or probably you experienced it, or you saw it, what have been your top two or three challenges that you faced?

Ami Moris: holding back my candid views and opinions was definitely a challenge. Learning how to say things without. Being, extremely angry or ex extremely emotional. But getting the point across was another thing that was extremely tough for me. I must say that upon looking back, I would say I failed miserably at both many times. But it is something that you learn through the years, right?

It is really about always pausing stepping back, reflecting, and always thinking about how to bring different parties with different interests to a common table, so to speak. And I guess the one thing that if, in this conversation, since we are talking about.

Different lenses for Asian women in leadership roles. The one thing that I really thought a lot about and reflect a lot about is about building social capital. Something that I definitely, had a lot of struggles with because it’s not easy, having the confidence to believe in yourself, that whatever that you say have value understanding how to curate a list of people that you need to be in front of because their views of you, their opinions of you, their decision making, powers matter to you.

Building the visibility for yourself, right? And especially visibility, which basically means your personal brand about what you stand for, what your positions are on various things. All these things which are part of building and investing in your social capital are not easy for women, right?

Because a lot of the activities around networking, for example, they were not necessarily to things that you felt comfortable in, karaoke nights with your top clients, et cetera. These were things that perhaps you really wanted to say, it’s not okay.

But you also know that as a woman, when you say it’s not okay, people will say, proves the point. It’s very difficult for women to get up there. So understanding what you want to represent, what is your brand and sticking to it, finding and navigating the parts.

To, the endpoint of ensuring that you know who you should be in front of whose opinions matter and how they can vouch for you. Basically finding your sponsors, all these things are part of that journey.

Ritu G. Mehrish: All right. You’ve said so many great things so the point that you made about visibility? In my work as a team coach, as an executive coach, and I work quite a bit with women leaders and sometimes, a lot of them will say, I don’t know how to build visibility, or Why should I build visibility?

I’m doing my job very well. then why do I need to? So I’m glad you addressed that because as you said, some of the big decisions of their careers are taken in a room when they are not there.

So therefore people need to know enough about them. The thing that you talked about investing in building and investing social capital. Can you double click on that? Can you tell us a little bit more about how especially young emerging? Women leaders, can start to build social capital early on in their careers, and how do they continue to invest in it?

Ami Moris: Having sponsorship, right? Having a sponsor, whether it’s a female sponsor or a male sponsor, But having sponsors, no matter where you are in the world, matters because it’s about people who.

Will and can vouch for you, right? what you stand for, the values that you bring to the table, and the value create the value creation that is possible with you at the table. So for young women, who are out there and listening and thinking, what should I do?

How do I go about doing it? Why is it important? It just seems like such a waste of time. Trust me, it is not when you work hard, They will naturally, come up for promotion. They’ll be top of the list for promotion. It’s not going to happen that way in boardrooms.

There are very few, who speak out for people who they can vouch in terms of being able to get to the next level. In terms of having leadership attributes or whatever, top of mind will be people who’ve been in front of them, right? To me I also, what I encourage is what I call a social audit, right?

Make sure that you always have, five questions. uppermost in your mind. For example who in your network is willing to introduce you to others? And you’ll be surprised. I have asked quite a few men in my career in investment banking to introduce me to this person, that ceo, that chair. That’s really key. Who do you know or who would and could vouch for you, right?

And seek those people out. It doesn’t necessarily just, it’s not just your bosses. It should be both your internal and external stakeholders. The third question I have is who will give you candid feedback, right? To make sure that you really are aware and conscious about your strengths and also about the areas that you could actually work on.

The fourth question in my social audit is how, who can help me understand how to navigate the organizational corridors? All organizations, especially large ones and including, the smaller, medium sized ones. There are always the corridor powers, right? And those conversations, the water cooler conversations, the corridor chats, they are really important so that you get a sense of what.

The organizational climate is who actually has the seeds to make certain decisions that could potentially impact your own career path. And who has the power to make things happen? Sometimes people, it’s not necessarily the people in the seats that can make things happen, right? And sometimes it’s external stakeholders as well. So these are the five things that I would really encourage, for younger women. Who are looking to really elevate their career trajectories. Always have those questions in mind.

Ritu G. Mehrish: Lovely. I love this. as you went through this, as you talked about a little bit of your challenges, things that you had to navigate through, Where did the support come from? Who were the people who really supported you in this journey?

Ami Moris: One of the best things that happened in my career is really going is going to maybank. The, here’s a funny story, Maybank it has always been the largest bank in Malaysia, but it was never my favorite bank. I felt it was always too slow. the brand was not particularly appealing, So I joined the bank in 2009, And I think that was when a lot of things really became clearer to me.

When you talk about, what are Asian women’s experiences of leadership? the years of being in the trenches, the one thing that really became a part of me was, this belief that in order for me to succeed, in order for me to, to really be, bigger than myself, was to be like other men in the industry.

So I did take on this persona of being very stoic being very irreverent of most things and above all not being emotional, not showing emotions, right? So that became a part of, how I projected myself, so to speak. And it was only in 2000 and 2010 when the, when Maybank undertook its transformation journey.

And part of that journey was really to cultivate what was called a hot culture and honest, open and transparent culture, which really meant that for the bank to really accelerate and elevate its growth. The mantras was, leave your egos at the door so that whatever conversations we have at the table will always be honest, open and transparent.

It was hard work. It was about, a hundred to 200 top leadership of the bank came together, huddled over many weeks to really understand. What was our own brand? And that was when our mission statement of humanizing financial services came about.

Everybody wanted to not be that stoic banker that, that banker that, that didn’t show that we cared about things. So humanizing financial services really was a huge. Enabler for all of us to really be more of who we are.

And not to be intimidated by differences. They could just be differences that we celebrate, that we embrace. So that was a massive trigger point for me. There was a lot of reflection in the early years of that transformation journey, and it really made me think back about my years in the trenches and how perhaps I wanted to actually be different, be more of myself.

So that was about, how being emotive, using my, the power of my own emotions to connect with others to make those connections, became a third thing for me to really understand how I can make a difference, to whatever I do.

Ritu G. Mehrish: Wow. This is such a great point about be power of emotions because again, one of the things that women leaders always. Try and do, or don’t show too much emotion or they want to hold onto their emotion because they don’t want to come across as being too emotive. But I’m hearing you say there is power in that, use that power well. So thank you. I think that’s a really good point. Ami, I wanna ask you, if you were to look back, what’s one advice you would give to your younger self?

Ami Moris: There’s, there will be plenty of advice, but looking back the one thing is to always have fun, As women, Asian women, have many constraints. We have many constraints about how people expect us to behave, how people expect us to turn up our own expectations, right?

The one element that is that you must have fun in whatever you do, right? Because and again, part of, being in a very male dominated industry, for example, I wore, it was always black suits, white shirts, comfortable shoes, right?

Fashionable, but very pragmatic. It is very much in my later years that having fun involved, having groups of women friends what I call sisterhood, right? Bro, clubs are everywhere, but sisterhood is really not fashionable. And I know sisterhood can come in many different shapes and forms and have different meanings, but when I talk about sisterhood, it’s really about having.

The ability to engage with other women, but most of all, having other women’s back encouraging and sponsorship. It is really about having your own groups. Or people who can help also become your sponsors. And one thing is that the with these groups is that you can learn to have fun.

Ritu G. Mehrish: Nice. One very personal question having had this great career, how do you define success?

Ami Moris: The one thing that, the one exercise that I do like to do is before I go to bed every night and is really to think if I don’t wake up tomorrow morning, right? What would be the avatar, so to speak, for myself, right? What would down to what or how I would define success.

And that’s really for me it’s about always having done my best. In whatever I do I do push the boundaries. I do push limits. I always raise the bar. My team are always very candid with me about, it’s like sometimes it’s, a bit of a nightmare working with me because it’s always, if people tell me that this is a particular solution, I will always say why not bigger, but the boulder,

Ritu G. Mehrish: All right.

Ami Moris: not higher? Why not more but it’s. It’s all the, my definition of success would really be, I see that whatever capabilities and talents that are gifted to us, they are exactly that. They are gifts to us. And our job in this life is really to actualize those talents, those gifts for others and to give back.

Ritu G. Mehrish: great. That’s such a lovely definition, Ami. It’s been such a pleasure speaking to you, and I know I can go on and on because such a great it is just, it’s just so nice to listen to you and with all your experience. But I’m aware of the time I, for me, Some of the key takeaways from our conversation.

One, absolutely. The thing that I loved was about social audit. How important it is not only for women leaders, but actually for everyone. But since we are talking specific women leaders, for them to. Not only build, but also continue to invest in building social capital And social audit was a great tool I thought.

And simple, but very powerful. The other piece that I really loved the other statement that you made was, don’t be intimidated by difference. And the reason I really liked it, because I know a lot of time, you know the point that you made women leaders, we go into a room and probably we are the only one, only woman there, or maybe there are two of us in a group of 20.

Or you go to you go out networking and you find yourself in very small numbers. So don’t be intimidated by difference because we all have something to offer and we should leverage that. And the third point was about about the thing about. Own your emotions, because that’s, again a thing that women leaders hear a lot.

And also they think themselves that, I should not be so emotive. I should be, I should keep a straight face. I should not show my emotions. But I guess there, there’s power in showing emotions, but the trick is how do we use that to our advantage? So those are my key takeaways, and I’m sure that our listeners are gonna find many more takeaways from this conversation. So thank you once again, Emmy. It was such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.

Ami Moris: Thank you. Thank you so much, Ritu.

Our Guest: Dato’ Ami Moris

Dato’ Ami Moris is the Chief Executive Officer of Maybank Investment Banking Group. She is responsible for the Investment Banking and Investment Management businesses across Maybank IBG’s ten-country regional platform.

An advocate of sustainability-first practices, her goal has always been to focus on Maybank’s mission of Humanising Financial Services by helping clients build more profitable and sustainable businesses that deliver a more equitable and inclusive ASEAN. Ami is also the Chair of 30% Club Malaysia. As a leader and boardroom member, Ami believes that Diversity, Equity and Inclusivity are key to an organisation’s performance and success.